UK: Everyone Gets a Personal Carbon Allowance

[arozanski]

www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/carbon/6527970/Everyone-in-Britain-could-be-given-a-personal-carbon-allowance.html

Everyone in Britain could be given a personal 'carbon allowance'
Everyone in Britain should have an annual carbon ration and be penalised if they use too much fuel, the head of the Environment Agency will say.


Published: 7:00AM GMT 09 Nov 2009

It would involve people being issued with a unique number which they would hand over when purchasing products that contribute to their carbon footprint, such as fuel Photo: GETTY

Lord Smith of Finsbury believes that implementing individual carbon allowances for every person will be the most effective way of meeting the targets for cutting greenhouse gas emissions.

It would involve people being issued with a unique number which they would hand over when purchasing products that contribute to their carbon footprint, such as fuel, airline tickets and electricity.

Like with a bank account, a statement would be sent out each month to help people keep track of what they are using.

If their "carbon account" hits zero, they would have to pay to get more credits.

Those who are frugal with their carbon usage will be able to sell their unused credits and make a profit.

Lord Smith will call for the scheme to be part of a "Green New Deal" to be introduced within 20 years when he addresses the agency's annual conference on Monday.

An Environment Agency spokesman said only those with "extravagant lifestyles" would be affected by the carbon allowances.

He said: "A lot of people who cycle will get money back. It will probably only be bankers and those with extravagant lifestyles who would lose out."

However, some have criticised the move as "Orwellian" and say it will have a detrimental impact on business.

Ruth Lea, an economist from Arbuthnot Banking Group, told the Daily Mail: "This is all about control of the individual and you begin to wonder whether this is what the green agenda has always been about. It's Orwellian. This will be an enormous tax on business."

Under the Climate Change Act, Britain is obliged to cut its emissions by 80 per cent on 1990 levels by 2050. This means annual CO2 emissions per person will have to fall from about 9 tonnes to only 2 tonnes.

[flylooper]

I like that.

I can only imagine what a travesty our Congress would make of such an idea. Not a one of those swine have the balls to propose something so effective.

While the rest of the world tries to get serious about the issue (and especially China), we'll be frittering time away, trying to figure out how to make sure Exxon and Peabody continue to get their slice of the energy pie.

[arozanski]

Nov 13, 2009 12:49:19 GMT -5 flylooper said:

I like that.

I can only imagine what a travesty our Congress would make of such an idea. Not a one of those swine have the balls to enact something so effective.

How do you enact it, though? What about your hobby, fishing? Does each fish have to be accounted for? Is tire wear going to be accounted for? Gasoline evaporation? How about the building you work in, are you held at all responsible for any carbon use there, or is it all the company's issue?

Too many questions for this plan.

[ty454]

Hey this is one step closer to my idea of energy allotment as currency. I'd like to pay for that with 127 BTU's, please.

I don't really see it being that much harder to determine how much energy something costs vs. how much fiat monetary value something costs to produce. Yeah it's a compelte overhaul, but that's going to happen anyway. You want inflation? Make it more efficiently.

The thing I wonder about....wouldn't having carbon credits be akin to having money? And if you have more money you can buy more shit and do more things...so you need more carbon credits anyway. So if you're poor you'll have fewer dollars to spend, and naturally need fewer carbon credits. On the surface it seems like they're just adding another tax layer in here.

I wonder how much lobbying there would be WRT deciding which consumables the carbon credits applied to?

[kitkat]

This is energy rationing with a legalized black market. Basically amounts to an energy flat tax. Total BS IMO.

[ty454]

Nov 13, 2009 14:42:22 GMT -5 kitkat said:

This is energy rationing with a legalized black market. Basically amounts to an energy flat tax. Total BS IMO.

I was reading closer and saw this statement:

---
He said: "A lot of people who cycle will get money back. It will probably only be bankers and those with extravagant lifestyles who would lose out."
---

Bwaahahahaha. Yeah only the evil rich will lose out. Oh, and bankers too - because they're generally the most hated people on the planet now so it'll rally the folks for my cause.

Nope, gotta go the whole way with an energy currency - IMHO

This is just a tax.

[john]

I saw the movie, it was called The Road Warrior. Things didn't turn out good.

[flylooper]

Nov 13, 2009 12:53:00 GMT -5 arozanski said:

Nov 13, 2009 12:49:19 GMT -5 flylooper said:

I like that.

I can only imagine what a travesty our Congress would make of such an idea. Not a one of those swine have the balls to enact something so effective.

How do you enact it, though? What about your hobby, fishing? Does each fish have to be accounted for? Is tire wear going to be accounted for? Gasoline evaporation? How about the building you work in, are you held at all responsible for any carbon use there, or is it all the company's issue?

Too many questions for this plan.

I would imagine it'd be fairly easy based on your use of electricity and natural gas/heating oil. They just look at your past usage and assign a basis to your consumption.

Gasoline could be more problematic and I would think the kind of vehicle(s) you drive and yearly mileage needs would be the basic determinants.

[county]

Gonna hafta sell the Blackbird and go with a WR250X

[flylooper]

Nov 13, 2009 14:42:22 GMT -5 kitkat said:

This is energy rationing with a legalized black market. Basically amounts to an energy flat tax. Total BS IMO.

See? They're already bitching about it.

[ty454]

Nov 13, 2009 18:10:51 GMT -5 flylooper said:

Nov 13, 2009 12:53:00 GMT -5 arozanski said:

How do you enact it, though? What about your hobby, fishing? Does each fish have to be accounted for? Is tire wear going to be accounted for? Gasoline evaporation? How about the building you work in, are you held at all responsible for any carbon use there, or is it all the company's issue?

Too many questions for this plan.

I would imagine it'd be tairly easy based on your use of electiricty and natural gas/heating oil. They just look at your past usage and assign a basis to your comsumption.

Gasoline could be more problematic and I would think the kind of vehicle(s) you drive and yearly mileage needs would be the basic determinants.

I think it's pretty easy. Since most of our oil use goes towards transportation, just tax by the mile and make it progressive to fuel use by the vehicle as well.

The Netherlands seems to have figured it out:

www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.244057bd1b30448115575c2187e68681.141&show_article=1

Best part about it is motorcycles are exempt. There was a time I would be adamantly against the guv tracking vehicles via GPS, but I'm sort of starting to come around to it. Somehow something has to be done to curb the sprawl.

[ty454]

Nov 13, 2009 18:13:30 GMT -5 flylooper said:

Nov 13, 2009 14:42:22 GMT -5 kitkat said:

This is energy rationing with a legalized black market. Basically amounts to an energy flat tax. Total BS IMO.

See? They're already bitching about it.

That's because it's no different than what we have now. So rich people can afford to take more vacations because they can afford more carbon credits. Wait, that shit costs money so lower income people already aren't taking those vacations anyway whereas rich people can afford more flights. What's the point? I presume so that some financial institutions can make more money trading these credits. I'm sure a "fee" would be garnered whenever a transaction takes place.

No, if you want to enact carbon credits, *everybody* gets the same amount, regardless of class. Do what you want with them, but you only get so many. And you can't buy anbody else's.

[flylooper]

....but think about it. What if your could sell the same things and make some money off of them You use 50% of your allotment, sell them for a new bike or something. After all, isn't energy a commodity?

PLUS....it would stimulate growing alternative forms of energy like crazy if they got scarce or if someone attempted to corner the market.

[ty454]

Nov 13, 2009 18:56:16 GMT -5 flylooper said:

....but think about it. What if your could sell the same things and make some money off of them You use 50% of your allotment, sell them for a new bike or something. After all, isn't energy a commodity?

PLUS....it would stimulate growing alternative forms of energy like crazy if they got scarce or if someone attempted to corner the market.

Then it's just a shadow currency. So basically you end up with two fiat systems. I need to think about it more, but to me it seems like just another layer of abstraction between resources and currency that will make a select few very rich.

Does a motorcycle cost carbon credits too? So I sell some of my carbon credits to get money for the bike but then I need carbon credits to buy the bike and fuel the bike?

[flylooper]

Nov 13, 2009 19:10:28 GMT -5 ty454 said:

Nov 13, 2009 18:56:16 GMT -5 flylooper said:

....but think about it. What if your could sell the same things and make some money off of them You use 50% of your allotment, sell them for a new bike or something. After all, isn't energy a commodity?

PLUS....it would stimulate growing alternative forms of energy like crazy if they got scarce or if someone attempted to corner the market.

Then it's just a shadow currency. So basically you end up with two fiat systems. I need to think about it more, but to me it seems like just another layer of abstraction between resources and currency that will make a select few very rich.

Does a motorcycle cost carbon credits too? So I sell some of my carbon credits to get money for the bike but then I need carbon credits to buy the bike and fuel the bike?

Anything with value can and should be traded openly (and fairly, I quickly add!). It's the most efficient way to create and allocate resources. Money is nothing but a symbol of value. It's a medium in which trade is conducted. Instead of delivering 100 bbls of crude to your motorcycle dealer in exchange for a new Concours 14 (!) you give him some paper which everyone agrees will stand in place of the crude oil.

Carbon credits are no different. If you don't use your allocation up, you should be able to convert them to something else of value. A new frig...a new bike....whatever.